There's no lit forum, but this place probably doesn't need one.
So, I didn't know this, but that dynamic duo K. Anderson and B. Herbert finally took a break from making all those prequel trilogies to finish up the real actual Dune series that Frank Herbert died before completing.
Hunters of Dune.
It's only the first part of Dune 7, of course, but at least it will only be a two-parter and not another trilogy.
I think.
The second, and ostensibly last part of the Dune series proper will be called Sandworms of Dune (...), and should come out around next year at this time, which, coincidentally is also when Twilight Princess will probably be released.
I only managed to get through Houses Atreidies and Harkonnen of H & A's first prequel trilogy, and I haven't touched the second at all (I personally don't like their style), but I'll pick this one up because hopefully at least the main plot points will have come from the man himself.
Anyways, I'm going to pick it up right now, because I finished re-reading the His Dark Materials trilogy yesterday and I am dying for a book to read.
Dune 7
Moderator: Seriously
BREAKING NEWS
So I've just acquired the book in question, I have it right now, so obviously:
SPOILERS
This is the first word of the first chapter:
"The"
Starts out okay, it's something that's been done before but that's no reason to stay away from it.
It's a good, solid first word, and I like that H & A are not trying to be fancy right off the bat.
Let's look at the second word:
"and"
...uh
Wait,
"The and"...?
Things are looking pretty bad
So I've just acquired the book in question, I have it right now, so obviously:
SPOILERS
This is the first word of the first chapter:
"The"
Starts out okay, it's something that's been done before but that's no reason to stay away from it.
It's a good, solid first word, and I like that H & A are not trying to be fancy right off the bat.
Let's look at the second word:
"and"
...uh
Wait,
"The and"...?
Things are looking pretty bad
Seriously, I squealed like a little girl when I saw this book in the bookstore. I didn't even know they were making another Dune book. As much as I think Kevin J. Anderson writes Star Wars novels like a douchebag, he and Herbert tackle the Dune mythology expertly.
So, I'm saving this for my annual bow-hunting trip (I always read a hardcover during this outing.) However, I have a question... is this a prequel, a sequel? Where does it fit in the Dune timeline? Before/After the Butlerian Jihad? Before/After Mu'a'Dib?
So, I'm saving this for my annual bow-hunting trip (I always read a hardcover during this outing.) However, I have a question... is this a prequel, a sequel? Where does it fit in the Dune timeline? Before/After the Butlerian Jihad? Before/After Mu'a'Dib?
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eamon angelface
- Posts: 960
- Joined: 04 Aug 2006 22:06
I don't mean to get off topic but bow hunting trip?smash wrote:Seriously, I squealed like a little girl when I saw this book in the bookstore. I didn't even know they were making another Dune book. As much as I think Kevin J. Anderson writes Star Wars novels like a douchebag, he and Herbert tackle the Dune mythology expertly.
So, I'm saving this for my annual bow-hunting trip (I always read a hardcover during this outing.) However, I have a question... is this a prequel, a sequel? Where does it fit in the Dune timeline? Before/After the Butlerian Jihad? Before/After Mu'a'Dib?
I have a new found respect for Smash. That sounds fucking awesome.
I demand to know more of this bow hunting!
DLT Prom Queen 4 years running.
Dune 7 comes after Dune 6, that is to say: Chapterhouse: Dune, the last book in the original Dune series written by Frank Herbert.smash wrote:So, I'm saving this for my annual bow-hunting trip (I always read a hardcover during this outing.) However, I have a question... is this a prequel, a sequel? Where does it fit in the Dune timeline? Before/After the Butlerian Jihad? Before/After Mu'a'Dib?
So, after the Jihad, after Mua'dib, after the God-King-Prime Minister-Whatever Leto II. It was supposed to be the final Dune book, but Mr. Herbert died before getting past the outline stage.
So, (history lesson) upon finding Herbert Sr.'s notes for Dune 7, Herbert Jr. and Mr. Anderson decide to write the book that finishes off the Dune saga.
But first, they wrote a whole lot of prequels to make more money and reinterest people in the series. That's fine.
This book is supposed to be the first half of the end of all things Dune (chronologically, at least. H & A have already said they'd like to write more). If you haven't read the entire original Dune series there will be some things that don't make sense.
i.e. Honored Matres and their hard fucking. Duncan Idaho's problem with chronic reincarnation. Sheanna (her name is Rio and she dances in the sand). The Golden Path and everything else Leto II.
And much, much more.
But, also, since H & A took the trouble of making all those prequels, they put stuff from the prequels in the book, so if you don't read all the prequels there's some things that will slip past you too, as I've discovered to my dismay.
So, read all the books?
The problem with that is that God-Emperor of Dune is a long and unenjoyable experience for most people.
Wikipedia is your friend?
It's kind of lame, but it might work.
Anyways, kill a deer for me.
I hate deer.
I made it through God Emperor: Dune. I couldn't stumble through Heretics or Chapterhouse or maybe both.
All I know is... poor Duncan Idaho. That and I am convinced that during the middle of writing God Emporer, Frank Herbert lost whatever was left of his feeble mind.
On to the Butlerian Jihad or other prequel books. Which, if any, have you read? I liked them all. I didn't like how they tied everything together, Swordmasters/Ix/Tilaxeu all 'coming to be' at the same time. But beyond that, I thought it was fun, easy reading.
I have predictions what the final 'nemesis' from outer space is. The one that God Leto II was reshaping mankind to face.
Erasmus the robot will always amuse me as a character (Butlerian Jihad era).
Bow hunting for deer, Eamon. I also rifle hunt.
All I know is... poor Duncan Idaho. That and I am convinced that during the middle of writing God Emporer, Frank Herbert lost whatever was left of his feeble mind.
On to the Butlerian Jihad or other prequel books. Which, if any, have you read? I liked them all. I didn't like how they tied everything together, Swordmasters/Ix/Tilaxeu all 'coming to be' at the same time. But beyond that, I thought it was fun, easy reading.
I have predictions what the final 'nemesis' from outer space is. The one that God Leto II was reshaping mankind to face.
Erasmus the robot will always amuse me as a character (Butlerian Jihad era).
Bow hunting for deer, Eamon. I also rifle hunt.
I've read House Atriedies and House Harkonnen and that is it.
But I finished Hunters of Dune last night and I am going to need to read the others now. I understood basically everything but getting the details wouldn't be amiss either.
Hunters of Dune I think is fine. It's not a revelation, but it works. It is a book. I don't regret reading it.
It makes Leto II's motives more clear concerning the Scattering. Also it explains the Honored Matres in a way I liked.
The chapters are short. I noticed that, it's a lot of short chapters.
Now that I think about it, I don't know why I was so undisposed towards reading all the prequels. The ones I read on the whole didn't leave an impression on me, but neither did Heretics (no idea what happened in that book).
Also, now that I think about it, Herbert Sr. did kind of go crazy-go-nuts towards the end there. I accept things like that pretty easily when it's in works of fiction, but Chapterhouse had a complete what the fuck ending where the main characters make a daring spaceship escape from an elderly couple tending to their lawn.
Spoiler by the way, because that is in no way made up.
Anyways, on to House Corrino.
But I finished Hunters of Dune last night and I am going to need to read the others now. I understood basically everything but getting the details wouldn't be amiss either.
Hunters of Dune I think is fine. It's not a revelation, but it works. It is a book. I don't regret reading it.
It makes Leto II's motives more clear concerning the Scattering. Also it explains the Honored Matres in a way I liked.
The chapters are short. I noticed that, it's a lot of short chapters.
Now that I think about it, I don't know why I was so undisposed towards reading all the prequels. The ones I read on the whole didn't leave an impression on me, but neither did Heretics (no idea what happened in that book).
Also, now that I think about it, Herbert Sr. did kind of go crazy-go-nuts towards the end there. I accept things like that pretty easily when it's in works of fiction, but Chapterhouse had a complete what the fuck ending where the main characters make a daring spaceship escape from an elderly couple tending to their lawn.
Spoiler by the way, because that is in no way made up.
Anyways, on to House Corrino.
Hurry and get to Erasmus the Robot. I think much emulation/discuss can ensue from him.
Now you've piqued my interest in finishing Heretics. I've had two aborted attempts at it thus far. Maybe three's a lucky number.
The whole bit about an omnipotent being knowing every single waking moment of every single second of every single minute of his life... What a mindfuck. That, plus the constant reincarnation of Duncan Idaho to A ) breed B ) fuck with for amusement (the only thing he couldnt fully see) C ) kill him. I swear, Frank Herbert went nutso.
What are your thoughts on all of the parallels to either A) Messiah complex or B) Middle Eastern terrorism. There certainly is a connection there. And from the point of view of the Fremen - quite sympathetic to terrorist mentality.
Now you've piqued my interest in finishing Heretics. I've had two aborted attempts at it thus far. Maybe three's a lucky number.
The whole bit about an omnipotent being knowing every single waking moment of every single second of every single minute of his life... What a mindfuck. That, plus the constant reincarnation of Duncan Idaho to A ) breed B ) fuck with for amusement (the only thing he couldnt fully see) C ) kill him. I swear, Frank Herbert went nutso.
What are your thoughts on all of the parallels to either A) Messiah complex or B) Middle Eastern terrorism. There certainly is a connection there. And from the point of view of the Fremen - quite sympathetic to terrorist mentality.
Due to various Acts of God I wasn't able to get any books yesterday.
Anyways, I doubt I'll say anything other people haven't said before, but here's my take:
There's lots of emphasis in the series on the ability of one being or factor to change everything even when everything is so unimaginably vast as the Dune universe is supposed to be, but the point I think is that this isn't a virtue to celebrate and put on motivational posters but an incredibly deadly, fatal weakness for a society to have.
Something like civilization is too vast and important to be allowed to balance on the edge of a knife like it so often and literally has in the Dune series.
Messiahs = bad bad bad. They are the natural enemy of peace and stability. Dune is chock full of messiahs, of people who are special and can change everything, but I think the point of their (the good guys at least) struggles is to render themselves obsolete, to put humanity as a whole out of the reach of messiahs forever.
The guy who supposedly ruled the universe before Muad'Dib probably wasn't nice, but it was okay because he didn't really control everthing. The empire was pretty much stable before Paul came along and grabbed all of human civilization by the throat when he threatened the spice. Shaddam wasn't a tyrant, Paul was a tyrant because he ruled everybody in more than just name. If you didn't do what he said, you ceased to be, because you didn't get any of what makes the galaxy go round.
One person telling all of humanity what to do. That's a terrible idea.
All of humanity, dependent on one thing. That's a terrible idea.
So it has to be fixed.
In the meantime, humanity will experience some technical difficulties.
Like I said, nothing that other people haven't already thought of already.
Also, to clarify, the Fremen aren't terrorists, they're freedom fighters.
The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is that terrorists are the kind of people that attack the US and its interests, but freedom fighters are the kind of people that founded the US, with allowances made for those that share our prevailing ideals.
Big difference. Huge. Not the same at all. Night and day. Now, for the purposes of the discussion I'll classify them both as a sub-set of "Dissenters", but it's like classifying Black and White under "Colors" or something. It's just for ease of understanding.
I think the "dissenter" aspect is just what Mr. Herbert feels to be the natural response of a group of people to rule by one or few (maybe even by many, it might be a symptom of any civilized society). Rightly or wrongly, rationally or irrationally, Backed By God or not Backed By God there will always be some people who disagree with those in power, and sometimes violently.
Luckily there aren't any grey areas when it comes to these kinds of things, freedom fighters are always right and terrorists are always wrong, by definition.
But since the Fremen are actually freedom fighters, not terrorists, there's no connection to the middle east, use of Arabic words and cultural peculiarities in the series notwithstanding.
Frank Herbert died in 1986 and in some ways that was more than two decades ago.
Anyways, I doubt I'll say anything other people haven't said before, but here's my take:
There's lots of emphasis in the series on the ability of one being or factor to change everything even when everything is so unimaginably vast as the Dune universe is supposed to be, but the point I think is that this isn't a virtue to celebrate and put on motivational posters but an incredibly deadly, fatal weakness for a society to have.
Something like civilization is too vast and important to be allowed to balance on the edge of a knife like it so often and literally has in the Dune series.
Messiahs = bad bad bad. They are the natural enemy of peace and stability. Dune is chock full of messiahs, of people who are special and can change everything, but I think the point of their (the good guys at least) struggles is to render themselves obsolete, to put humanity as a whole out of the reach of messiahs forever.
The guy who supposedly ruled the universe before Muad'Dib probably wasn't nice, but it was okay because he didn't really control everthing. The empire was pretty much stable before Paul came along and grabbed all of human civilization by the throat when he threatened the spice. Shaddam wasn't a tyrant, Paul was a tyrant because he ruled everybody in more than just name. If you didn't do what he said, you ceased to be, because you didn't get any of what makes the galaxy go round.
One person telling all of humanity what to do. That's a terrible idea.
All of humanity, dependent on one thing. That's a terrible idea.
So it has to be fixed.
In the meantime, humanity will experience some technical difficulties.
Like I said, nothing that other people haven't already thought of already.
Also, to clarify, the Fremen aren't terrorists, they're freedom fighters.
The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is that terrorists are the kind of people that attack the US and its interests, but freedom fighters are the kind of people that founded the US, with allowances made for those that share our prevailing ideals.
Big difference. Huge. Not the same at all. Night and day. Now, for the purposes of the discussion I'll classify them both as a sub-set of "Dissenters", but it's like classifying Black and White under "Colors" or something. It's just for ease of understanding.
I think the "dissenter" aspect is just what Mr. Herbert feels to be the natural response of a group of people to rule by one or few (maybe even by many, it might be a symptom of any civilized society). Rightly or wrongly, rationally or irrationally, Backed By God or not Backed By God there will always be some people who disagree with those in power, and sometimes violently.
Luckily there aren't any grey areas when it comes to these kinds of things, freedom fighters are always right and terrorists are always wrong, by definition.
But since the Fremen are actually freedom fighters, not terrorists, there's no connection to the middle east, use of Arabic words and cultural peculiarities in the series notwithstanding.
Frank Herbert died in 1986 and in some ways that was more than two decades ago.
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eamon angelface
- Posts: 960
- Joined: 04 Aug 2006 22:06
I'll save you from rolling your eyes by not asking how a person hunts a rifle and just say the bow thing sounds more fun.smash wrote:
Bow hunting for deer, Eamon. I also rifle hunt.
I think it would take a lot of skill to shoot a deer with an arrow while drinking. I'm assuming there is drinking. There better be drinking.
DLT Prom Queen 4 years running.
Hmm...this falls in line with my theory I had upon reading Dune.Seriously wrote:All of humanity, dependent on one thing. That's a terrible idea.
spice = oil
And I always thought of the Fremen more as Jews than Muslims. God's "chosen people," persecuted and driven into the desert, fierce military culture, waiting for Messiah.
Also, how was Shaddam IV not a tyrant? If you failed to do as he said, he simply sent legions of Sardaukar to destroy you. How's that any better than having your spice cut off?
DISCLAIMER: I've only read the first novel and the prequels.
Emperor Shaddam WAS a tyrant, but really not so far off of the mark of previous tyrants. I think Seriously hits the nail on the head when he says that the overriding message of the books are that ANY messiah is bad for a peoples. Maybe that becomes more apparent as you read further into the mythos.
Mau'Dib talks about this, as does Leto II (The God Worm). They both talk about how they didn't want to become this mystical figure but had no other choice in order to push humanity in the right direction. I believe that Leto II says that his father avoided that destiny in the final analysis by suffering the fate that befell him (left unstated on purpose as to not plot ruin).
Throughout it, Leto II seemed to dash in and out of the 'god' character. He knew forcing the people through loving (and loathing him) would bring them to the next stage of evolution... but all the while he despised the role he had.
At least that's how I took it.
The Herbert/Andersen novels drop this overly 'heady' storyline and focus more on sci-fi. I guess I wish that they had found a better balance. I liked the heady stuff, but rarely understood it. :S
Seriously, does the latest Dune follow more 'sci fi' or more 'mind fuck?'
Mau'Dib talks about this, as does Leto II (The God Worm). They both talk about how they didn't want to become this mystical figure but had no other choice in order to push humanity in the right direction. I believe that Leto II says that his father avoided that destiny in the final analysis by suffering the fate that befell him (left unstated on purpose as to not plot ruin).
Throughout it, Leto II seemed to dash in and out of the 'god' character. He knew forcing the people through loving (and loathing him) would bring them to the next stage of evolution... but all the while he despised the role he had.
At least that's how I took it.
The Herbert/Andersen novels drop this overly 'heady' storyline and focus more on sci-fi. I guess I wish that they had found a better balance. I liked the heady stuff, but rarely understood it. :S
Seriously, does the latest Dune follow more 'sci fi' or more 'mind fuck?'
It's sci-fi
Much lighter reading that Herbert Sr.
Angelbaby: Shaddam IV was very powerful, but his rule still depended on the acceptance of the existing institutions.
Neither Muad'Dib nor the God-King had any such dependencies, because everyone else depended on them to keep existing.
Shaddam IV could send his super-killers anywhere, but only if the Spacing Guild consented to taking them. He could use force to a point, but he still depended on the tacit consent of the Guild (and the Bene Gesserit, and the other houses) to stay in power. But once Paul got control of the spice, the Spacing Guild, which is so important to the interstellar Dune universe that the calendar is set to its founding, would become irrelevant the second they refused Muad'Dib a request. Every other institution was in basically the same situation, plus there were a whole lot of people who were actually physically addicted to spice.
Paul Atriedies, and to a much greater extent Leto II, could end civilization whenever they so chose, and that's a kind of power that Shaddam IV, or anyone else, could never claim. That's what I meant.
Shaddam was powerful, but Paul had so much more power and control as to redefine the terms. He outclassed Shaddam.
But neither Paul nor the so-called God-Emperor are in the same class of absolute monarchs as the Mule from the Foundation series.
That son of a bitch could fuck you up like a goddamn car accident.
Much lighter reading that Herbert Sr.
Angelbaby: Shaddam IV was very powerful, but his rule still depended on the acceptance of the existing institutions.
Neither Muad'Dib nor the God-King had any such dependencies, because everyone else depended on them to keep existing.
Shaddam IV could send his super-killers anywhere, but only if the Spacing Guild consented to taking them. He could use force to a point, but he still depended on the tacit consent of the Guild (and the Bene Gesserit, and the other houses) to stay in power. But once Paul got control of the spice, the Spacing Guild, which is so important to the interstellar Dune universe that the calendar is set to its founding, would become irrelevant the second they refused Muad'Dib a request. Every other institution was in basically the same situation, plus there were a whole lot of people who were actually physically addicted to spice.
Paul Atriedies, and to a much greater extent Leto II, could end civilization whenever they so chose, and that's a kind of power that Shaddam IV, or anyone else, could never claim. That's what I meant.
Shaddam was powerful, but Paul had so much more power and control as to redefine the terms. He outclassed Shaddam.
But neither Paul nor the so-called God-Emperor are in the same class of absolute monarchs as the Mule from the Foundation series.
That son of a bitch could fuck you up like a goddamn car accident.
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