You want conversation, you got it...

[AngelBaby]

According to stats I've seen today there were less than 100 gun deaths in the UK and Wales last year.

In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire.

But naturally that has absolutely nothing to do with the availability of guns in America , as Bill Hicks said you'd be a fool and a communist to suggest that.

According to stats I've seen recently, in most years more than half of the gun deaths in the US are suicides, so we can write those off, since those people would've punched their ticket some other way anyhow. And I'd guess that the large percentage of the remainder are criminal on criminal homicides. I think I read that accidental gun death is typically around 3% of the total in a given year.

Also, the rates of violent crime in the US have dropped pretty much every year since the mid '90s (I believe 2005 was an exception), while the exact opposite is true in the UK.

I guess I'm a fool to believe any of that means anything though. Or would I be a fool to live my life based on the beliefs of a dead comedian? I dunno...it's six or one-half dozen.

[gulliver]

According to stats I've seen today there were less than 100 gun deaths in the UK and Wales last year.

In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire.

But naturally that has absolutely nothing to do with the availability of guns in America , as Bill Hicks said you'd be a fool and a communist to suggest that.

I guess I'm a fool to believe any of that means anything though. Or would I be a fool to live my life based on the beliefs of a dead comedian? I dunno...it's six or one-half dozen.

OH SNAP!


Well, irrelevant stats and dead comedians aside. Do any of you feel this incident will having any major repercussions on existing laws or the general attitude towards guns? I mean, nothing has really changed since Columbine has it?

[eamon angelface]

I don't. Other than the usual temporary effect. People usually digest something severe for about 3 hours and then go on about their usual day.

Which is how it should be. Otherwise every time somebody wants something changed they'll do something drastic. Don't negotiate with the bank robbers.

[smash]

Columbine did change how guns could be purchased at gun shows... which is how those two fucknuts got their guns.

Instead now, you can only buy CERTAIN guns at gun shows. Like shotguns. And of course, it meant there were all new loopholes to exploit for the gun industy.

Again, if the NRA stopped screaming foul and got on the bandwagon of rooting out the bad apples, I'd be behind them fully.

Oh and btw, they'll tell you that they ARE for stricter enforcement of gun laws. They'll tell you that because they didn't support the Brady Bill but instead supported their OWN bill that had harsher sentencing for offenders...

...again its all horse shit.

[Bligityblah]

Those gun death statistics are also skewed by one other piece of conveniently omitted information. They include those who were killed in self-defense shootings and those dumb enough to get shot by the police. Each year about 150,000 violent crimes are stopped in their tracks by law abiding gun owners. I myself have been one of those.

Of the gun crime that happens in the U.S. there is a very common thread, a majority of those weapons are purchased illegally. The solution is less gun legislation, not more. I'm not advocating that people be able to purchase full-autos on the corner for pennies on the dollar but simply this: Gun laws effect only those who choose to obey them. If you want to kill someone bad enough you'll fly a plane into a building or blow up a backpack during morning rush.


Some interesting reading:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/1440764.stm
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/shared/r ... =pb&id=604[/i]

[Steampunk]

I'm with Smashy -- this generation should have grown up post-Columbine, with "look out for the loner kid" drilled into their brains. WTF?!? Some of the other college students even joked that he would someday be a school shooter.

[AngelBaby]

Investigation has revealed this maniac fired...wait for it...170 SHOTS.

WTF.

How could people living post-Columbine, post-9/11 just cower under their desks as a killer methodically shoots their classmates and reloads numerous times? I'm just in absolute shock that someone, anyone, didn't try to rush this guy. I mean, you have to know at some point that you are probably getting shot anyway, why not at least present a moving, aggressive target?

[exelis]

Investigation has revealed this maniac fired...wait for it...170 SHOTS.

WTF.

How could people living post-Columbine, post-9/11 just cower under their desks as a killer methodically shoots their classmates and reloads numerous times? I'm just in absolute shock that someone, anyone, didn't try to rush this guy. I mean, you have to know at some point that you are probably getting shot anyway, why not at least present a moving, aggressive target?

I agree, AB. It's the context, I suppose. If he was on an airplane, he would have gotten his ass kicked. Why the same rationale doesn't occur to people in a classroom I do not know. Maybe they figured the police had to be on the way or something.

[Steampunk]

A herd, not a pack.

Edit: Good article, kinda related to the topic.

[Seriously]

Investigation has revealed this maniac fired...wait for it...170 SHOTS.

WTF.

How could people living post-Columbine, post-9/11 just cower under their desks as a killer methodically shoots their classmates and reloads numerous times? I'm just in absolute shock that someone, anyone, didn't try to rush this guy. I mean, you have to know at some point that you are probably getting shot anyway, why not at least present a moving, aggressive target?

F-

Fear?

Fear.


Someone fires a gunshot in my general direction, as soon as I can even convince myself someone wants to kill me I will piss myself and not be able to move. I may start crying. I am not constructed to deal with actual murderousness. Someone points a gun in my face, my instruments will go screwy and it'll probably be a few seconds before I can even think about fight/flight

You would do differently?

I'm not saying you wouldn't, as you may have been in a relatable situation, but otherwise are you sure?

This isn't Isreal or Iraq, death is an abstract to us, shootings are in newspapers, even if they're in all of them.

[efilflah]

I know I've been in a situation at knifepoint and I've plucked up to the courage to talk tough and act like it doesn't phase me thus avoiding an unpleasant situation getting anymore unpleasant, but that's still a far cry from having the balls to charge at the guy and take the knife off him.

Guns are less common around these 'ere parts. I've yet to even fire one, so god knows what seeing some crazed gunman would do to me. I anticipate that given that my neurological disorder (essential tremor) is heightened by stress and anxiety, I'd be shaking like an alzheimer's sufferer at a techno rave doped up on Ecstasy.

[Steampunk]

Investigation has revealed this maniac fired...wait for it...170 SHOTS.

WTF.

How could people living post-Columbine, post-9/11 just cower under their desks as a killer methodically shoots their classmates and reloads numerous times? I'm just in absolute shock that someone, anyone, didn't try to rush this guy. I mean, you have to know at some point that you are probably getting shot anyway, why not at least present a moving, aggressive target?

F-

Fear?

Fear.


Someone fires a gunshot in my general direction, as soon as I can even convince myself someone wants to kill me I will piss myself and not be able to move. I may start crying. I am not constructed to deal with actual murderousness. Someone points a gun in my face, my instruments will go screwy and it'll probably be a few seconds before I can even think about fight/flight

You would do differently?

I'm not saying you wouldn't, as you may have been in a relatable situation, but otherwise are you sure?

This isn't Isreal or Iraq, death is an abstract to us, shootings are in newspapers, even if they're in all of them.

As usual, Seriously makes a good point. I've had a bit of training with weapons, tactics, and such -- and it's amazing to me that the emphasis is on the mindset much more than marksmanship, techniques, et cetera.

In this situation, the college kids had to go from thinking about French lessons and the chick in the slutty skirt next to them to stop-the-bad-guy in a matter of seconds. Cho had been working himself up to this point for months. Getting over the hurdle of killing another human had been passed for him. For most people, this is a significant event and not a decision made easily nor quickly (thankfully in most situations, but not in this one).

But you still have to wonder, after the 50th round? The 100th? The 150th?

[AngelBaby]

But you still have to wonder, after the 50th round? The 100th? The 150th?

That's basically all I'm saying.

I agree with Seriously as far as the initial shots fired, but this guy shot people at close range, sometimes multiple times, for NINE MINUTES.

That's time to digest what is happening, overcome initial panic, and realize that if you don't do something other than lie on the floor, life as you know it might be over. Of course, I speak as someone who has a significant other in law enforcement, and I've had some amount of training drilled into my head.

[exelis]

So, I tried to type a response to this days ago but kept getting interrupted.

Psychologists call the phenomenon groupthink, and one aspect of it is diffusion of responsibility. When in a large group, people tend to believe that there are other people around, so someone will do the right thing. Rarely does anybody do it, though.

People almost always follow perceived authority, too, even when it can mean harm to themselves or others. Look at all sorts of cults for a hint. If Cho set himself up in a way that enforced an authority role, it may have played a factor.

There's a whole line of studies that show the odd ways that we think in various situations that could be applied here. Zimbardo's Stanford Prison experiment comes to mind, as well as Milgram's "learning" experiment.

[Seriously]

In the response I never made, I alluded to that.


No, really.

Anyways, I've a final on that tomorrow.



It's for one of my degrees in that it is the last obstacle. As I fully intend to get at least one, I am going to murder 1 that test.

Malice aforethought all up ins.

Very few will survive, wrath of a thousand angry gods.